So, if the news sources and statistics stand to be believed, a third of Britons believe that women who act flirtatiously aid and abet their rape.
Reading about this in various media made me think about a few things….
Many peeps reel in horror whenever someone argues in favour of women bringing on their own rape by sleeping around/wearing “provocative” clothing/flirting and what-have-you, arguing, quite rightly, that one cannot take responsibility for the actions of others – all well and good…
…and yet, many of the same people who would argue on the side of self-responsibility and the inexcusability of rape (myself included, at times) would nevertheless cry: “(s)he had it coming” in an instance involving non-sexual violence. An example of such malice would be someone chatting shit about some next person unjustifiably, only to be met with a smack in the gob for their malice; how many would see in that act the fist of justice as opposed to the vice of violation?
And what of the child – the slip of a person – who disobeys the rule structure of his environment (i.e: his home) and meets with a “good hiding” for his transgressions?
Similar premises undermine all these circumstances; yet some would frown at any talk of justice or desert in the former, whilst asserting the existence of such in the latter two ….
Just an observation….
Justice is blind is a good phrase here. It doesn’t matter the situation or the people involved, A violation is simply a violation.
Arguing somebody had it coming or they deserved it can only be done in defensible terms. Such as the case “Murder in self defence”. There is never a situation were rape is right. You can’t rape to defend yourself. You can smack somebody to defend yourself from insult, as you mentioned.
What i’m saying is, only actions can make other actions justifiable. The “character” of the person is (or should be) unimportant.
I wonder how many rape cases are normally conceptualized alleyway rape with ski mask and knife, and how many are, oh I was drunk enough for you to be a one night stand but now that you’re halfway in I’ve changed my mind kinds of rape.
At least violence has aggravated assault and all sorts of intent attached to it. Rape doesn’t often have these distinctions, and yet it seems the case of mind changing being called rape is being more frequently reported in the media. Food for thought.
The way I see it the second type would only be rape if the woman indicated that she had indeed changed her mind and the guy refused to stop. Is this what you mean? Or are you talking about women who cry rape after the fact?
Both. When no means yes, and the woman is either an idiot, or is tryin to fulfill a rape fantasy, or after the fact when she regrets what she did and wants to absolve herself of responsibility.
Well, as I see it the “after the fact” type of woman is a cunt, purely and simply; I hold them in as much esteem as I would hold an actual rapist; if you want one reason why genuine rape victims do not get the justice they deserve look to the Wolf-crying contingent hogging the headlines.
As for the rape fantasists, wouldn’t all that role-play be worked out with the partner beforehand so that both parties know what they’re getting themselves into? I would’ve thought people would be more open and honest about that type of thing these days…..
The woman who withdraws consent during the act certainly possesses unsound and incoherent judgment, but should such a fact warrant the overriding of said judgment by the male? I think not.
I would say that a man who only rapes a girl for the second half of the encounter is still just as bad as the man who commits one complete rape, just more cowardly. But… a girl’s gotta be insane to expect just ANY guy to possess the self discipline to do what’s right when he’s halfway towards bustin’ a nut. Of course, if every woman took time to select those kind of ethically sound men as sex partners, the next evolutionary generation would be something to behold.
So you’re comparing rape with discipline? I’d say it’s more like someone who splashes on a shitload of fruity perfume and then goes strolling through a bee farm. It’s a harsher consequence than a harmless punch in the chops, or a good-old-fashioned-spanking; it’s downright deadly.
Pretend rape IS a slap in the wrist, just long enough that you can understand where he’s coming from. You’re seeing magnitude of a consequence as the reason it’s unwarranted. That’s like saying nobody should get a million dollars because it’s too much for anyone to possibly deserve.
Who ever heard of someone being forcibly given a million dollars?
Who ever heard of a corpse saying “Don’t rape me”? I haven’t, therefore, I think you can imagine where I do most of my raping.
Why not compare rape with “discipline”? Both have the same underlying premises – initiating force and overpowering the vulnerable to get one’s own way. Only difference is one is reviled for the abhorrent act that it is, whilst the other is considered “good parenting”. Mass perception sees only surface appearances.
So if my daughter’s being bad, I should…
My opinion is that there are very very few instances where rape is right (ALMOST never, but rape can be heroic), but most rape victims, at least every single one I’ve talked to, brought it upon themselves by leaving the decision of their rape in the hands of the rapist. EXAMPLE: “This guy’s gonna date rape me if I get drunk with him! Okay, just three more shots of vodka and then I’ll only drink beer for the rest of the night, and I shouldn’t black out.”
There’s a scene I love in a Christina Aguillera video where she walks outside in the skankiest of ghettos wearing basically nothing at all, the bottom of her ass hangs out her shorts and all of her chest besides three inches per breast can be seen, and then a guy smacks her on the ass and she looks outrageously offended. Maybe that guy was in the wrong, but you don’t tug on Superman’s cape, spit into the wind or play with hundreds of dollars in a subway station filled with pistol toting homeless people, and you don’t go dressed as rape bait in rape land and expect not to bait a rapist.
I’ll defend a woman’s right to dress however she wants, but I also defend a person’s right to suicide. Maybe the woman isn’t evil for luring a rapist, but quite a few victims are only victimized out of their own idiocy. I mean, if you’re going to a frat house party for example, what do you think is gonna happen? You’re gonna meet some nice respectable young men who might possibly just not duct tape you to a chair and run a train on you until you need reconstructive surgery on your uterus?
I’m not so much challenging as curious, when do you think rape can be heroic?
I am curious about this myself.
In a simple, eye for an eye morality, if someone rapes someone you love, you would be justified in sodomizing them. If you believe in punishment for crimes, rape is no less justified than imprisonment. In fact, I’d rather be raped than imprisoned (Yes, even by a man, I’d hate to be raped by a woman too though BTW, no matter what most people seem to think about men).
Hmm..very much a personal Lex Talionis – I buy your line of reasoning, though I don’t know whether “heroic” is the right term for it.
One could also argue how it’s poetic justice when a rapist drops the soap in a prison shower…
I need to write a revenge movie about a hero named Lex Talionis.
Hehe….great term; even greater name for a character!
While there are plenty of women who make really stupid choices (along that “think I will wear my club clothes to walk home in a bad neighborhood” line or the “I can drink half a bottle of vodka and be fine” line), the majority of the women that *I* know that have been raped were attacked in the street for being *pretty*.
In the states we have degrees of Rape. There is full on Assault Rape, and then the more minor Date Rape (where it’s all fun and games until someone says NO and the other person doesn’t listen, or when people use substances to incapacitate their victims). Both are serious offenses. Both are abolutely justified. However, the police are less likely to rally the troops if the rape “victim” comes in obviously dressed to intice and has been there *before*.
I am highly unamused by the women who claim to have been date raped because they don’t want to admit they willing slept with someone. Likewise, I am highly unamused by spouses who decide that they have the *right* to sex anytime they like – just because you are married, doesn’t mean it isn’t *rape*.
It’s kind of hard to feel sympathy for someone over an instance of rape when they were warned to avoid that person from the start. I don’t think they deserve to be VIOLATED (mentally or physically) neccessarily, but sometimes you need to touch the fire to know that it burns.
To throw in my real two cents, people committing folly deserve everything they get. I have no mercy or compassion for any bitch dumb enough to black out while wearing dental floss in the middle of what was so beautifully described as “rape land”. If you’re just wandering around being female and get jumped, woopsie daisy. Sucks to be you.
And woe be the man actually caught or charged for the rape in any capacity. Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time. Unless you’re really rich or faceless.
Every action has it’s equal and opposite reaction. That’s life, if you can’t understand this by the time you’re an adult, lay under a bus immediately.
Interestingly enough, women are aroused by a wider range of stimuli than men. Also, physical pleasure can result from rape during the act. It’s thought to be an evolutionary reaction to the very common predicament of being raped. The stats are 1 in 3 women or something, eh? We haven’t evolved or advanced as people, we just hide the animal within a slight bit better.
You say all this, but what would your view be the same if someone you cared about suffered such an ordeal?
The women that I associate with would only be raped under circumstances far beyond their control, the knife-point situation. And if one of them WAS raped, and this man was caught, he would suffer greatly. If I can’t get to him, I have people that I can pay who will gladly send the message. A life isn’t worth much behind bars.
My issue is with people committing folly, who are classified as idiots. Actual victims are victims and the offenders deserve swift and brutal justice, a la the kind we’ve become “too civilized” to use outside of black ops interrogations.
“Actual victims are victims and the offenders deserve swift and brutal justice, a la the kind we’ve become “too civilized” to use outside of black ops interrogations”
On this I 100% agree with you!
I have no mercy or compassion for any bitch dumb enough to black out while wearing dental floss in the middle of what was so beautifully described as “rape land”. If you’re just wandering around being female and get jumped, woopsie daisy. Sucks to be you.
‘Dumb enough to black out’?
While I agree that walking around a dangerous area wearing practically nothing is provocative behaviour and a stupid thing to do, I would like to remind you that ‘blacking out’ is not a pleasant thing and is seldom done on purpose. I am epileptic and am regularly ‘dumb enough to black out’, as you so delicately put it, and I have no choice as to the time and the place.
That wasn’t even a reply to my comment. Clearly I’m not implying that women black out due to mental deficiency. The true implication is the consumption of a massive amount of alcoholic beverages.
If you black out due to disease, being clunked on the head or your brain imploding, it stands to reason that you’re a victim in the true sense of the word, and aren’t responsible for your own predicament. Unless of course you ate a tube of epilepsy sauce and asked a dangerous looking man to bop you on the noggin in an alley. For the sake of argument, we’ll assume this isn’t the case.
The rest is some sort of attempt to cash in on a prize for special interest group of the week. Blacking out due to epileptic seizure isn’t something that even crossed my mind in regard to rape. But we all know what I meant. It’s coupled with the clothing description and “rape land”. You’re a woman, the topic is rape, so it’s understandable how my lack of tact would come across as an invite for retaliation on some level. I say it with something of a smile. There’s no true malice here.
But thank you for the public service announcement in regard to the epileptic anti-rape women’s movement.
I think something to consider with the rape is that clothing is a reflection of one’s personality and to some extent one’s desires. I have heard girls at my old college say they are dressing a certain way to attract guys, for example. They then wear skimpy clothing and go to bars and dance provocatively, and they are indeed looking for one-night stands. To the guy, I think the clothing and the behavior (which typically go hand and hand) are the signal that the girl wants a sexual encounter. Some of these girls then do cry rape, or complain that they receive unwanted attention.
Rape is reprehensible in all cases, but a woman who dresses skimpily and dances in a sexual way is indeed sending off a much different message than one who wears a sweatshirt and stands quietly in a corner. I believe the message is: “I am available right now.”
I don’t think that women necessarily dress skimpily with “availability” as their motive; your explanation stands up in many instances but not all. I’d argue that pure attention is the motive, or even just a simple pleasure in one’s own design and body.
In any case there’s a world of difference betwen asking for attention and asking for assault….
Pingback: Sex and the Shibboleth « MRDA's Inferno